In Response
**Update below**
From all (or almost all) the comments and emails I've received, its pretty much decided I'm way out of line to ask Sara to refrain from venturing into our territory with her husband. But you missed something. You missed the real catalyst that drove my concerns. I was mistaken when I said that Kayten didn't have all the information she needs to come to her conclusions. It is all there. If you notice, there is a common thread or theme that runs through most of my posts. And its this: I know how Sara feels about us, and things pertaining to us. But I'm always looking for those things to reinforce what I'm thinking. Looking from her perspective, I always seem to be right about what drives her hurt, her anger, and her overall feelings about me/us. So I must obviously know that I'm still number one on her list as well. But I'm only human and I will always have periods of doubt. And when she tells me "I know you don't really want to hear this but..." and continues to tell me anyway, I become filled with doubt about us. So my desire to ask her to not go there with him was just a knee-jerk reaction to the jealousy I felt. He has almost every other aspect of her life in his hands, and I'm just asking that the one's remaining be left to me. It's that simple. Nothing manipulative or controlling about that at all.
Almost from the beginning, Sara had asked not to know about such things. And even had a real problem if I ever mentioned that the wife and I went out to dinner. I came to understand and respect her request. I had zero problems with it. But she also had a problem that I didn't mind hearing those things from her. She felt if such information didn't make me feel jealous, I must not really feel the things for her that I claim to feel. I explained - back then - that she leaves no doubt in mind how she feels about me and that is why I'm secure in hearing those things. Then the lightbulb went on and I realized I must not have been doing a very good job of leaving no doubt in her mind about my feelings for her. I choose to change that and feel I've been doing a good job ever since. Unfortunately she doesn't realize that a lot of things she has said to me since then has had the affect of leaving doubt in mind. She needs to fix that. Would that be asking too much?
**Updated. I realized that I forgot to address the issue of 'territories' and whether its right or wrong to ask Sara not to allow his intrusion into mine. I feel that is still an issue worth discussing, but my train of thought got sidetracked. I'll try to address that specifically in another post, but I'm very busy right now. I'll have something by Monday.
From all (or almost all) the comments and emails I've received, its pretty much decided I'm way out of line to ask Sara to refrain from venturing into our territory with her husband. But you missed something. You missed the real catalyst that drove my concerns. I was mistaken when I said that Kayten didn't have all the information she needs to come to her conclusions. It is all there. If you notice, there is a common thread or theme that runs through most of my posts. And its this: I know how Sara feels about us, and things pertaining to us. But I'm always looking for those things to reinforce what I'm thinking. Looking from her perspective, I always seem to be right about what drives her hurt, her anger, and her overall feelings about me/us. So I must obviously know that I'm still number one on her list as well. But I'm only human and I will always have periods of doubt. And when she tells me "I know you don't really want to hear this but..." and continues to tell me anyway, I become filled with doubt about us. So my desire to ask her to not go there with him was just a knee-jerk reaction to the jealousy I felt. He has almost every other aspect of her life in his hands, and I'm just asking that the one's remaining be left to me. It's that simple. Nothing manipulative or controlling about that at all.
Almost from the beginning, Sara had asked not to know about such things. And even had a real problem if I ever mentioned that the wife and I went out to dinner. I came to understand and respect her request. I had zero problems with it. But she also had a problem that I didn't mind hearing those things from her. She felt if such information didn't make me feel jealous, I must not really feel the things for her that I claim to feel. I explained - back then - that she leaves no doubt in mind how she feels about me and that is why I'm secure in hearing those things. Then the lightbulb went on and I realized I must not have been doing a very good job of leaving no doubt in her mind about my feelings for her. I choose to change that and feel I've been doing a good job ever since. Unfortunately she doesn't realize that a lot of things she has said to me since then has had the affect of leaving doubt in mind. She needs to fix that. Would that be asking too much?
**Updated. I realized that I forgot to address the issue of 'territories' and whether its right or wrong to ask Sara not to allow his intrusion into mine. I feel that is still an issue worth discussing, but my train of thought got sidetracked. I'll try to address that specifically in another post, but I'm very busy right now. I'll have something by Monday.
posted by do_in_it_2 | 8:29 AM
9 Comments:
I'm not sure what to say, because after coming back to this post 3 different times, I am still more confused than I ever was.
This time, Bad Girl said what I wanted to say.
Really, what I see when I read your posts is that you like things with Sara to be complicated, and she with you, because that keeps you both tied to each other somehow. When the ties seem loose, you'll both put knots in them just so they don't slip off. It seems that feeling even bad feelings like jealousy or despair or anger is preferable to both of you than feeling nothing. And I guess that's what I don't understand ... because then there will come a time when one of you will WANT to come untied and the other is tied so tightly you can hardly breathe without the other.
As you've detailed in this post, at every stage of this affair you've had choices to make, many of them being how to communicate feelings or intentions. In fact, the communication choices issues seem to be paramount on your blog as you often write just whether or not Sara is checking email or voicemail and what that is intended to communicate to you. I think when I get confused here is that some of the choices you or she make seem inconsistent with other choices - if they're about keeping you in Sara's thoughts, or keeping your life running normally, or your sexual gratification, or your desire to let Sara live her life without the complications you bring to it.
I think the thing most confusing about this post is your "being number one" on each other's lists. You're both married to other people and intend to stay that way. Neither of you are in open marriages in which your spouses are aware of the affair, or even that anything is amiss. Lately you've been considering another affair with Nastya. How do you define this concept of "being number one" - for yourself, and for Sara? It would seem to me that the spouse is "number one" and you MUST be "number two", but maybe if I could understand that, I can understand your points of view much better than I have to date.
You wrote in this post, "But she also had a problem that I didn't mind hearing those things from her. She felt if such information didn't make me feel jealous, I must not really feel the things for her that I claim to feel." This sounds, IMO, terribly 7th-grade, and controlling on her end. It's as possessive as it can be. Kayten had it nailed - about the knots & how tightly each of you keeps tying them. Jealousy is about ownership, and being jealous of the existing spouse is pernicious & troubling.
I've just reread your posts (gee whiz, where did my afternoon go?!) to the start...some things that strike me: She dumped a boyfriend for a man whom she married, because she wanted someone with financial prospects. The last 3 years have been a lie with him (because she was consumed by you). She now has four young children, obviously under age 6. She still has vaginal sex with hubby, and apparently anal as well. What is it that she really wants from life? What would satisfy the deepest reaches of her soul? I doubt it's as simple as an e-lover (you) who makes her wet & whom she's seen 10 times. I suspect that part of her wants to divorce, have you divorce, and then somehow end up together. But since there is no likelihood of that happening, and no plan and steps for it to happen, she instead tortures herself. It seems as if the dichotomies of good girl (married to a provider, mother of children, etc) vs bad girl (peeing on her lover in a hotel room, etc) operate with enormous force and salience. That's a sticky wicket for you to solve.
When people are addicted to whatever it is - food, debt, gambling, sex, etc - they describe exactly what you've described here. The problem with food addiction is that one cannot remove the food from themselves. The thing about a spending addiction is that the person can literally cut up credit cards, enlist others to help keep away from stores, remove the computer & avoid online shopping. With your relationship here, it sounds so addictive that if you really wanted it to end, you would need to treat it as if it were any other sort of addiction. If you choose to keep continuing the relationship, then you are obviously getting a lot out of the drama, the storms, the power plays (what struck me was her telling you not to email her because it makes you seem weak). She wants someone to "rape her ass" and in doing so, really take control of her. That's about power, in a nutshell. There's a huge payoff to the drama - makes you feel alive, connected, wanted, loved? - and this is drama that often is missing from a marriage, wherein the commitment & stability have been 'assured' by the legal commitment, children, etc. --VM--
You guys really just aren't getting it. And I have to blame myself for not explaining it well enough. I'll try again in another post. It really is so simple, and yes, even 7th grade-ish, so that must make it elementary - my dear Watson. Could it be that you have truly never been totally 'in love' with somebody and therefore can't comprehend those emotions that lie deep within? Or is possible that I have no clue what being in love is? But if you're reading into this that both Sara and I are controlling, or manipulative, or whatever, you are totally missing the boat. Yes, it might appear so, but for it to be true, it would have to be done on purpose. We are both just expressing our true, from the gut, feelings to each other without tying to that any ultimatums, agendas, or ulterior motives. It's possible we are two of a kind, but I love her even more because such things bother her. And I am certain she feels likewise. It's an amazing feeling inside, one that I have no clue on how to express.
Maybe. But the two times I have considered myself in "true love" I have wanted to sacrifice myself for him for his happiness - and had no "negative" emotions such as jealousy. It's whenever I'm consumed by the other stuff that I feel I'm clouded by lust and just not thinking right.
If this really is "true love" then why not abandon your spouses for eternal happiness together?
Kayten, you can not possibly be telling me that you have never felt a pang of occasional jealously relative to somebody whom you were deeply in love with. Jealously in itself is not a negative emotion, only if acted upon in a negative manner. Jealousy, to me, is more an indication of one's insecurity. But maybe I'm confusing this emotion with another one.
It goes back to what I said before. If Sara had not started leaving occasional doubts in my mind of where I stand with her, this would not even have been an issue.
sick fucker
It goes back to what I said before. If Sara had not started leaving occasional doubts in my mind of where I stand with her, this would not even have been an issue.
Well, maybe you can clarify this in a future post. I would think "where you stand with her" is that you are number 2, after her husband, and a temporary lover she should be able to walk away from at any time. That you have to recognize that and respect her choices; that's what love is really about. But I think you see it a different way, based on your "still number one on her list as well" comment. I'd be interested to understand what that means - how you see this ending - or if you two will still be married to others and continuing with this affair when you're in your seventies.
And yes, I have felt pangs of jealousy before. Those have been warning signs to me that the relationship was not a good or healthy one and needed to be ended, since I could not trust my partner. And so I did, and found it wasn't love, but lust or infatuation or just an addiction to the way he made me feel good. Even if you say "Jealously in itself is not a negative emotion, only if acted upon in a negative manner," what do you consider a "negative manner" if telling Sara what she cannot do with her husband sexually is not it?
I don't think you would want me commenting here about jealousy, baby, because I was in an open marriage ~ open from the first day we began dating. I thought through all my feelings, and jealousy was one that I thought about instead of just responding to it. So you probably don't want pragmatic little me waxing on about what I think jealousy is!! I'm being a tad snarky but also very very serious.
Gotta say that I'm with Kayten all the way on this. You need to explain further...or answer the question that we both have (as well as others?): why not simply leave your spouses? Or at least separate and start having the relationship in real time and less so via voice- & email? Others have jumped in head first with far less water under the bridge.
My other questions: 1. is it odd to you that though she wants your piss in her mouth, she will not let you go down on her? I understand self-consciousness, but generally that sort doesn't also accompany watersports! It's very intriguing to me. 2. how did you really feel when you found out she was pregnant (twice) in the time you knew her? Did you wish it was yours? Were you jealous because she was obviously still fucking her husband?
I ask because of my friend, S. She had a long-distance affair with a married man who claimed his marriage was over, and he couldn't leave his wife till...[her dog died][her mom died][she got over her miscarriage]. The dog recovered, so did mom, and to heal the miscarriage, they adopted!! They would see each other maybe every 4-5 months, in hotels while he claimed to be on business, and he had a separate phone line just for her (they spoke nightly). My friend, S., truly believed she would be his next wife, because their sex was so...transcendent, and he was a good Dom. But dang, that adoption showed him to be the liar he is and was. They broke up for years, then she went back to him, and finally broke the spell when she managed to find someone new. But the turning point in her illusions was his recommitting to the wife via another child. I wonder if you saw things similarly.... In infinite curiosity, --VM--
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